Adrenal response

[jinasphinx]

I'm on this mailing list for women swordfighters in the SCA. And on it someone recently asserted that when the fight-or-flight reaction is triggered, men "freak out" and take a while to calm down. Whereas women start calm (or maybe it was get calm very quickly), but then after the event is over, we have the freakout (crying). I haven't heard this before; is this from a study, or widely known in sports?

([Edit:] I thought everyone, male or female, felt like crap when they come down off the adrenaline, because you've just used up your entire supply of adrenaline for the day.)

I tried doing a web search but all I keep finding is that damn tend-and-befriend study.

Comments

[random-girl.livejournal.com]

I found this article:

http://www.ivillage.co.uk/workcareer/survive/stress/articles/0,,156473_162212,00.html

[craigp.livejournal.com]

without further evidence, i'd guess it's either sexist/anecdotal or a misconstrual of the tend-and-befriend study.

*scratches head*

[flinx.livejournal.com]

I dunno. Having been both a heavy-fighter (polearms rock!) and a light-fighter (too slow!), I've seen both reaction types in both sexes. Also, with having been something of a hot-dog skier when I was younger (and lighter and more flexible), I've seen the same thing on the slopes, too.

As for the feeling like crap afterwards, it's not because your adrenals just blew out--it's that your body just burned up much of your quick-and-ready sugar stores, your blood pressure's going dramatically back to normal, and blood-flow in your brain is resuming normal patterns. Doesn't matter if the adrenaline is a single huge bolus, a steady trickle, or a series of small peaks. You get jittery afterwards, period.

Admittedly, I'm not an endocrinologist. These are just my observations from my own experiences.

Re: *scratches head*

[jinasphinx.livejournal.com]

Interesting! Thanks for posting. I didn't know you'd done SCA fighting! And you're the closest to an endocrinologist on my friends list. :) My one experience with a big adrenaline rush was when I took one of those self-defense classes where the guy comes out in a giant padded suit. After the class, when the jitters had gone away, I felt very sad. I went home and cried for a while. I also feel sad when my blood sugar's low so your point about burning up sugar stores sounds spot-on to me.

Re: *scratches head*

[flinx.livejournal.com]

Ja, I was a proto-stick-jock whilst in Chicago. Needed something to do to vent frustration. I never got cleared by the marshals for real combat, but I had a lot of fun at practices. Depending on whether or not I get into grad school, I may once again resume activity in the lists... as Lydia's certainly dragging me back into the Society, anyway. Heh. (Incidentally, if you ever see the name 'Pan' Cieszimir Brygant z Obrona, or just 'polish Sasha', that's me. ;-) )

And, yeah, I'm not an endocrinologist, and I certainly recognize that there's a whole biological network in there that I'm not going to even try and touch. There's enough to keep track of in immunology. =-)

But, yeah, most of my info is anecdotal. As waterfaery said below, individuals vary. I know that I've trained myself towards a very calm response, as, for example, it tends to make me a very good driver under crappy conditions (not uncommon in MI winters). Same thing in tight spots in melee or when biking or skiing. I come off as composed, and I really use the heightened awareness to good effect, but when I'm done, I'll be totally drained. Blood-sugar crash, muscle strain, the works.

One of the reasons that I'm not much of a thrill-seeker--I don't get that rush of emotion, as I've trained myself to get it out of the way.

[waterfaery.livejournal.com]

Lots of the websites on PTSD/child trauma/Dissociative Identity Disorder talk about the continuum from dissociative behaviors (more typical for female abused/traumatized kids) to aggressive/antisocial behaviors (more typical for male abused/traumatized kids). There are neurochemical components to both of these reactions--it's not just adrenaline, but also testosterone, norepinephrine, serotonin, dopamine, and other teeny little proteins bouncing around messing with ya. So the general observed tendencies are just that--both generalized, and tendentious, and based on empirical observation--but it's a lot more complex, and there's a spectrum of reactions informed by the chemical and environment-driven characteristics of the individual, and somewhat influenced by the way both neurochemistry and behavior manifest across the gender spectrum. The "calm" evidenced often in women may at times be dissociative, or alternatively may indicate equilibrium. It's going to depend on all those wiggly factors.

All of which is to say that yes, there are studies to support this generalization, and yes, the poster made it far too black and white.

And on the "using up your supply for the day"... different chemicals are produced following an adrenaline (plus testosterone plus norephinephrine) surge, and normal people do "crash" in some fashion after such surges--but individuals (again) are different. For example, people with general anxiety disorder may in some cases be constantly flooded with these chemicals and thus react differently.

I'd suggest looking at some of the studies on dissociation and/or PTSD and/or child trauma. They've got good info on typical/atypical fight (aggression) or flight (dissociation) reactions.

[jinasphinx.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I didn't think of the "calm" as possibly dissociative, but that makes a lot of sense.

Dunno if you care about anecdote only

[walkitout]

My adrenaline response has changed a lot over the last few years. I used to do something that I now recognize as very dissociative, which was very useful, but I did not like. In my martial arts class, we do a lot of stuff in a very learn-the-mechanics/get-the-move-right way, and then we do some stuff in a woof-the-student-and-see-if-she-can-cope way. Maybe because I've just gotten so damn much practice at getting adrenalized (dunno if that's a word or not) in such a clearly safe in every way context (it's all fun and games until someone gets poked in the eye), and maybe because it isn't useful to stop feeling my body-in-detail the way I used to (you lose that internal feedback while doing martial arts and it just doesn't work quite as well, in my experience) -- and maybe because I've spent a few more years not being around the sources of my major life problems for a few years -- in any event, I no longer get that float-y feeling I used to get when adrenalized. I still get the time-stop effect, but I now feel the cascade of chemistry internally, and can use it somewhat to my benefit.

It is still not particularly helpful to feel that when the ABS kicks in while driving. Then, you just keep doing the right thing and hope it works.I And I don't know if this is related, but I used to get real chatty as I was coming down; now I get really chat before the high has even crested. You should have heard me in Leavenworth a couple weeks ago.

Speaking of martial arts, we've been doing a log of arm drags lately, and I had a technical question about what to do if someone slipped out of a particular move the one way it is possible to slip out (tightening up does not help). We got down on the mat so Korbett could demonstrate how that works on the ground, then got back up again to do a different maneuver standing up (the move on the ground involves a leg to the hip, and then over the head, which doesn't work so well standing). When we did any kind of floor work a couple years ago, I found it absolutely nerve-wracking, unintuitive and just plain hard. Now, apparently, I just automatically do the right thing, quite calmly (internally and externally), slowly and precisely. Weeeeeeiiiiiirrrrrd. My current theory is that 40+ hours of labor with some very, very close friends did a lot to get me over my remaining body hangups.

Re: Dunno if you care about anecdote only

[jinasphinx.livejournal.com]

Anecdotal info definitely appreciated! It's really good to know that the response can change.

More anecdotal evidence...

[ssandv.livejournal.com]

Go figure.

I've done some form of strenuous physical activity since I was probably 8, and I actually feel *better* at the tail end than I do at the start. I can be so exhausted I can barely stand without shaking, and it feels *good*. I've never experienced anything like the urge to cry you're talking about. That ranges from downhill skiing (yes, when I do it, it's strenuous :) ), to distance running, to cycling, to ultimate frisbee, to SCA fighting, and the feeling is independent of what I was doing, depending only on how hard I do it.

Re: More anecdotal evidence...

[jinasphinx.livejournal.com]

Huh, interesting. Did any of this physical activity trigger your fight-or-flight response? (In case you're not familiar with it, you'd have effects like heart pounding in your mouth, time slowing down, tunnel vision or seeing through a red haze, lack of fine motor control, and muffled hearing.)

[ianhess.livejournal.com]

Toby Beck (Duchess Elina) cites research on male and female adrenal curves in her book "the Armored Rose" ( http://www.swordmaiden.com/armoredrose/ ). She also talks about typical gender differences in wrist and hip tendons. I know people have varying reactions to the book, but I believe it names the specific studies you were asking for in the bibliography.

[jinasphinx.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I've kinda been meaning to order that book; guess it's time to get on it.